Curse

Mimi Miyagi · Sep 10, 2005, 05:52 PM // 17:52

I agree with the original thread starter. I also enjoy it when a few people say things like "the community wants/needs/thinks" or uses words like "everyone".

The amusing thing is that the ones complaining on gaming forum fansites generally think of themselves as "experts" and a representative of the community and present their complaints as such. How many members are there to these forums? A thousand? Five thousand? How many people PLAY GW worldwide? Hundreds of thousands? Millions?

As someone else said, it's the same 20% of the people in the forums that do 80% of the talking.

Red Locust · Sep 10, 2005, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Yeah, the OP is correct. I'm not so sure about the exact ratio of 42:1, but it has been proven and is generally accepted as true that on polls, surveys and other means of public expression, customers are far more likey to express their dissatisfaction than their appreciation for a product.

Dax · Sep 10, 2005, 06:01 PM // 18:01

..but does it mean anything that most of the people who complain play despite the fact they complain?

EternalTempest · Sep 10, 2005, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Agree with OP, very good info for people that don't work in customer services. I do work in customer services and I would agree with his figures. I do non-scripted computer tech support over the phone. Thins rings so true.

Also he has not stated his opinion on how he felt about the update but it feels like the people who didn't like the update are trying to razz him.

Skean Dau · Sep 10, 2005, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternalTempest

Also he has not stated his opinion on how he felt about the update but it feels like the people who didn't like the update are trying to razz him.

Actually, I dont have much of an opinion since I havent even freakin ascended yet! I was following all the monk builds and was dying to try the solo monk build, but that looks squashed....so that sorta bites, but as you pointed out it was not meant to be a post about one opinion being 'right' over the other....

Shinsei · Sep 10, 2005, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skean Dau

A lot of really smart people (not me)

Obviously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skean Dau

There are always variations of course, and I am not sure if a game population would actually "fit" into any of the templates, but I am sure it is close.

And I'm pretty sure it isn't. With anonymity being a factor in online games, and the age group being fairly different than what your so called polls and research was based on (i'm pretty sure wherever you're getting your info from, wether it's your ass or a business poll, the customers in that poll are most likely all adults, whereas in online games, they can range from down to age 12.), it's nowhere near a 42:1 complaint-compliment ratio.

Many children, and often times adults, post their random compliments on forums they hardly visit, because 1, they're anonymous and 2, they're trying to let loose with that little tingly feeling they get inbetween their legs when they play the game they love oh so much (keep in mind these people are often social rejects). With successful online games that live up to their standards, games such as SC, UO and the MechWarrior series, you'd probably notice somewhere near the 1:1 ratio, which is ideal and probably as good as it gets in a normal croud. However, a game such as GW, which isn't living up to it's standards and what it promised, is much worse, and that's because people are actually dissatisfied with the product. As you see, your 42:1 ratio is bs, as it doesn't take the product's quality into account.

Epinephrine · Sep 10, 2005, 06:17 PM // 18:17

I don't think that the OP was meaning to state that the 42:1 number holds in this case, but an example of a generality. If he did mean that it should hold exactly, I too would like to know why he feels it should translate directly to an average. I am a professional statistical analyst myself - my background is statistics, though I also have an MSc in neuroscience, which means that I've studied a fair amount of psych on the way through, and the numbers like 42:1 are generalities and have to do with specific forms of polling on specific topics. Responder/non-responder ratios and negative/positive ratings are well studied, but vary incredibly based on the collection methods, the subject and the demographic of the sample. I don't think an Ipsos-Reid poll is at all similar to a forum, except that in general people are more motivated to comment negatively - but trying to use the ratio in one instance in another is absurd, and amounts to pulling statistics out of thin air.

In that respect, I agree with Silmor on this one - by your logic I should be a "judge of human nature" while that certainly is not my title - "biostatistician" is a title; "statistical analyst" is a title. I don't recall seeing a job advertised for a professional judge of human nature, and I think that the OP's point about the prevalence of negative commentary is true in its generality, it is also a well enough known fact that it needs little commentary, and that putting a number to it is a stretch, and is unjustified. Simply saying that more will respond negatively is enough, if you stick a number on there you'll just have to defend the statement and I don't think you can do so in any rigourous manner.

Skean Dau · Sep 10, 2005, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinsei

Obviously.

Wow, and that is why people don't post....unbelievable.

You state some knowledge, you get flamed.

You try and be humble, you get flamed.

I feel sorry for you Shinsei.

Fr3sH · Sep 10, 2005, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Ill be blunt. You guys are nerds.

And so am i!

Bingley Joe · Sep 10, 2005, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Do you people really lead such sheltered existances that the information the OP is presenting strikes you as unbelieveable?? Or at least unbelieveable enough that you're willing to completely dodge around the central point of their post without doing even one second of self-directed thinking about it?

I mean come on.. how much marketing research and analysis do you think goes on in the world on any given day, people? You've really never had your dinner interrupted by a crackly-voiced teenager wondering how you rate the service in your bank or the like?

Well, be it known that there are plenty of folks out there who make very good careers out of studying these sorts of trends precisely because the information is invaluable to a MULTITUDE of different professional people the world over.. how is that really so hard to understand? Furthermore, WHO CARES what professions are using the information? The point is, is it really that hard to believe that SOMEONE would NEED to know this stuff and that the OP might be one of those people?

It's also possible to simply be informed on a topic without needing to be a professional. For example, I have NO professional business knowing those sorts of figures, and yet I have read very similar statistics in the past. Think I read it in the newspaper. NO they might not have applied PRECISELY to the model of a video game, but FFS there is a general CONCEPT in the OP's message that is really pretty foolish to argue against.

Activate synapses, FTW!

Silmor · Sep 10, 2005, 06:36 PM // 18:36

The reason why I lashed out was that when you strip this thread down, there's not a whole lot that remains other than placing this forum's complaint:compliment ratio in perspective. The conclusion that people with grievances are far more likely to complain than content people are to compliment has been reached many times before on these forums however, and as mentioned is a pretty well-established concept.

The complaining also serves a purpose: creating community awareness about issues in Guild Wars (since it's not a perfect game), which in turn can spark discussions on how to improve those issues so that eventually Guild Wars could become a better game.

But this was a one-sided message: "don't worry about whiners, many more people are enjoying the game". It's rather disrespectful to people who take the time to voice their complaints, in the sense that it implies they're a dismissable minority. Not all complainers are frothing-at-the-mouth spoiled brats, many of the complaints are with actual issues, and this forum is there for them to discuss it, so I really don't like people saying "oh, don't pay attention to the complainers".

It was presented as 'reality', as 'facts' concluded by someone boasting vague qualifications to do so, presenting unbacked numbers that seem to dismiss the complexity of the field claimed expertise in, acting as if he's the first to come up with these conclusions on this forum (refreshments are fine, but don't claim you're the first to come up with something when you're not), reaching out to some imaginary confused audience in need of reassurement.

I didn't lash out because I was upset about the update. I'm very content about most of the update, there's certain parts about it I'm not too happy about, and there's certain things I'd like to have seen in the update but didn't. I lashed out because I can't stand people trying to dismiss people with valid complaints just because others are happy. Customer servicing isn't just about hearing from people who are happy, it's also about hearing from people who are not - this is why customer feedback is a valuable asset to companies, and a 'professional' in the field should know that.

Loviatar · Sep 10, 2005, 06:41 PM // 18:41

has anyone else noticed that the same people who defend their right to flame Anet/GW/Gaile/Alex without being labeled a whineing troll are the first to yell *FANBOY* if anybody dares say anything good about them?

I CONFESS....I AM HAVING FUN WITH GW WARTS AND ALL

CALL ME FANBOY (sorry ishmael)

Dax · Sep 10, 2005, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fr3sH

Ill be blunt. You guys are nerds.

Haha, now there's no truer words. I would have little trouble if this was stated as an opinion but the title uses the word "reality" and was stated as a "fact".
Niether of which is backed up except we're just supposed to take thier word for it.

This forum is by no means a cross section of a typical user, anyone could say whatever they want whether true or not.

wilflare · Sep 10, 2005, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Not saying forums are bad(they do give real good information!), I find myself enjoying my Guild Wars experience much more when I stay away from all the complain threads and all.

Missions hard/easy?
I enjoy it more and the group gets closer to each other when we keep dying. ^^ I just kept trying again and again and my group members too. We pick enemies one by one. Get into tense situation with only one monk trying to rez everyone again. Everyone locks their eyes on his health and exclaim "RUN" when enemies come or words of thanks just keep coming as he bring us back to life.
-Whatever builds/nerfs/buffs, we just kept trying and in awhile, we completed it. ^^

And many other stuff too. Like Gold/Purple/Blue weapons. I don't really know the prices. Sometimes, people in game just offer advice.

So far, my experience has been well. Only come to forums once in awhile to check out suggestions or if my Guild Wars runs into an error or inquire about certain stuff. Will recommend this game to my friends. ^^

Perhaps, "Ignorance is Bliss" is simply true.
But the forums are really good for suggesting stuff, some of the suggestions are really good. Hope A-Net will look into it. xD

Numa Pompilius · Sep 10, 2005, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bingley Joe

Do you people really lead such sheltered existances that the information the OP is presenting strikes you as unbelieveable??

Do you really lead such a sheltered existence that you believe everything anonymous people tell you on websites?

Third Quarter · Sep 10, 2005, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

... this was a one-sided message: "don't worry about whiners, many more people are enjoying the game". It's rather disrespectful to people who take the time to voice their complaints, in the sense that it implies they're a dismissable minority.

You must have missed a paragraph:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skean Dau

And before I get flamed, I AM NOT suggesting that the complaints, posts, worrys are not justified, not at all, just that it will get posted, while someone like myself who just loveds the game, plays merrily along without the urge to talk about it. Maybe thats a flaw, but then again I keep seeing the term "fanboy", so thats another reason not to post.

Sounds to me like his message is a lot more positive: "Don't let the number of complainers get you down. It's normal and a good."

Sayshina · Sep 10, 2005, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skean Dau

You are correct that there are a multitude of other factors involved. I simply didnt think a 22 page missive was in order.
You are 100% incorrect about there being no paying profession that is a "judge of human nature". I could name 20.
My numbers are fact.
YOU think my message is bland, that does not make it so.
YOU just proved my point....thanks.

First, a note to Mimi Miyagi: I so wanted to like you, as the name rocks. But what the hell are you talking about? Millions playing this game? Are you high? Thousands on this forum? You can see how many people are on these forums at a glance, and it's not thousands. You can estimate how many people are playing GW at any given time as well. But what you really should be asking is why Anet won't tell us how many people are playing.

When I load up Diablo 2, the game tells me there are 60,649 players in 20,980 games right this second.

I have long suspected that Anet doesn't want us to know how many people are actualy playing because the numbers aren't good. This is not exactly "proof" of anything, but just look around in game and tell me how you can possibly come to the conclusion that there could be millions of people in there. The last time I checked, there was only 1 Tombs district for christs sake. There are only a handfull of towns that EVER have more than 2 districts.

To the OP: Like others have pointed out, it's bad form to claim expertise while refusing to elaborate on what exactly that expertise is. To claim yourself to be a "judge of human nature" makes you look like a first year Socialogy undergrad. Your claimed "facts", again with no backup, do the same.

Please understand, entirely separate from actualy taking issue with the content of your message, your claims of expertise have generated at least 1/2 of the criticism in this thread.

Now for the crisicism of your "facts". First off, they remain unsubstantiated. Secondly, they most likely are NOT directly relatable to the gaming community, for reasons already mentioned.

The average age of the player base alone would be enough to skew your statistics far out of acceptable error margins. Anyone who actualy has anything to do with human nature can tell you that children are fundamentaly different. There's a reason that child psychology and pediatrics are specialties, and that those who go into one are highly unlikely to see adult patients as well.

By the way, psychologists are certainly NOT "judges of human nature". The idea of "judging" you patient would not go over well with any clinical review board I can think of.

Another factor you fail to even mention, let alone include in your "facts", is that a gaming community is by definition more technicaly savy than the general population.

If 1 person in 1000 might go to the trouble to write city hall, far more than 1/1000 will speak up if a reporter asks them their oppinion on the street. In the first case, they have to be upset enough to take action, in the second they need to nothing other than answer. Someone has made it easy for them, and that changes the goal posts.

Technicaly savy people are far more likely to voice a complaint BECAUSE IT'S EASY. They don't have to figure out how, it's no effort, and effort is the primary impediment for action. If fitness were easy we wouldn't be the fattest society in history.

Your 1/42 ratio is also unlikely to hold up. Notice, I make no claim to posession of facts, I simply notice factors you seem unable to consider. The fact is that there are many people on these forums who go out of their way to compliment all things Anet. There's a reason some of them have been labeled "fanboi's". No matter how you slice it, Gaile Grey has got to be one of the worst CSR's I've ever come across. She has made a point to ignore an entire segment of the game population, which we should remember it is her job to relate to. She has flamed people in the past, primarily for dissagreeing with the direction Anet has taken the game.

Every update, you will instantly see "great job Anet" posts pop up. Mostly before anyone could possibly have a chance to actualy test the update. Certainly you will also see complaints start appearing soon after, although generaly AFTER some testing has been done. Your 20/1 ratio in this forum is skewed for that reason if for none other. It's also skewed because being a "whiner" is far more likely to get you banned than being a "carebear".

Another reason for complaints is that THEY WORK. As evidence you need look no further than this very game. Once upon a time the PvE was mostly an afterthought, and it was the PvE types doing all the complaining. THEIR COMPLAINTS WORKED, THEY CHANGED THE GAME. If something works, if a behavior is rewarded, you can expect more of that behavior. I didn't think you need to be a "judge of human nature" to understand that one.

Your most egregious error is the final line: "you just proved my point". What are you, 12? That debate tactic is right up there with "I know you are, but what am I?"

Part of me really wants to keep picking your arguement apart, but there's only so much fluff I can wade through. Try to form a better thought, back it up with evidence instead of claiming to be in possesion of mysterious "facts" you clearly have no intent to share, and then get back to us.

Ultimate_Gaara · Sep 10, 2005, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Simple solution, ban america from playing, complaining goes down 90%

(Still let Canada play)

I have no clue why people like to complain so much, but they really seem to like it, and half the time its over something so small that pointing it out makes them look like a baby looking for their mother... loud, annoying, can't fix their own problem, and will not stop crying untill they get what they want..

Funny actualy, last week everyones post was "Omg SF is going to rule, i can't wait", then the day after it comes out "Omg big bad update by Anet"... people, seriously make up your minds... do not enjoy something one minute and bash it the next just to fit in with all the cool kids...

My "im about to get flamed for this post" senses are tingling

Teufel Eldritch · Sep 10, 2005, 07:41 PM // 19:41

How nice... someone comes in here with a smile on their face & starts talking about GW & then gets slammed & flamed for it. Not surprising really, especially since it's always the same ppl doing the flaming/nitpicking/trolling around here.